Dahua WizColor 5x59-PRO and SmartLight 5x59-IL new series

[CamCrazy]

@CamCrazy : I wonder if maybe the difficulty you are having in freeze motion is related to my observation (which I didn't realize) that even if you have the 3D/2D NR levels set to zero, if you have it toggled, you are still getting some NR - as @steve1225's said "In case of WizColor cams - this is done using much more powerful 2D NR & 3D NR AI networks - which use different NR algorithms to different type of "surfaces" ... so even if the camera is capturing a sharp image, that NR is smearing it up by time it gets to you(?)

If you haven't already, maybe try this and see if it makes a difference specifically WRT freezing motion.


Yea, ditto what @bigredfish said - as in the photography world, it's all about the light.
BTW, sometimes our subjects don't pose for the camera - this (small!) bird was taken with a shutter speed of 1/8000s.

View attachment 230847

Yes thanks for the tip, I have NR toggled off at the moment, tried it on with 0, and various other settings. Nice bird in flight shot there, I like the challenge of BIF, also static, big photography fan here

Don't have any of my better/bigger/sharper birds snaps to hand but technique does surely help even with these slow moving ones...taken with older camera and I don't consider either to be really sharp....but not too bad....






This is fairly sharp...





Sunset



And this was a crop about 80% not too bad...



This was just for fun!



Anyway, hopefully that helps improve my credibility as a judge of sharpness, maybe not - sorry for going off topic!!

 

[bigredfish]

@CamCrazy : I wonder if maybe the difficulty you are having in freeze motion is related to my observation (which I didn't realize) that even if you have the 3D/2D NR levels set to zero, if you have it toggled, you are still getting some NR - as @steve1225's said "In case of WizColor cams - this is done using much more powerful 2D NR & 3D NR AI networks - which use different NR algorithms to different type of "surfaces" ... so even if the camera is capturing a sharp image, that NR is smearing it up by time it gets to you(?)

If you haven't already, maybe try this and see if it makes a difference specifically WRT freezing motion.


Yea, ditto what @bigredfish said - as in the photography world, it's all about the light.
BTW, sometimes our subjects don't pose for the camera - this (small!) bird was taken with a shutter speed of 1/8000s.

View attachment 230847

Awesome shot.

The other problem is changing light. We dont enjoy a constant light intensity this we have to allow for a wide range of light/dark conditions even in daytime.
I'd love to be able to run 1/2000 or 1/5000 all day, but clouds, shadows and rain usually make that problematic

These are good enough for me out of a $200 camera. Would love to have had them at 1/8000

On 4MP 5442 S2 at 1/250


4K-T at 1/500


5442-S3 Overcast 1/250

 

[CamCrazy]

Awesome shot.

The other problem is changing light. We dont enjoy a constant light intensity this we have to allow for a wide range of light/dark conditions even in daytime.
I'd love to be able to run 1/2000 or 1/5000 all day, but clouds, shadows and rain usually make that problematic

These are good enough for me out of a $200 camera. Would love to have had them at 1/8000

On 4MP 5442 S2 at 1/250
View attachment 230848

4K-T at 1/500
View attachment 230862

5442-S3 Overcast 1/250
View attachment 230865 View attachment 230864

Some great wildlife shots can surely be caught on cctv cams, your heron footage was superb! some nice wildlife you have there also. My PTZ has got some great captures that I wish could have been witnessed with proper photography kit. Yes the light changes by the second in many cases, still the 54Pro continues to both surprise and bemuse in equal measures, maybe having to run shutter at fast limit is the new norm for these cams, in poor light at least.

 

[alekk]

I'm suggesting to @CamCrazy that if he hasn't tried it, see what happens with motion freeze (at "reasonable" 0-3msec shutter speeds) if he turns NR completely off.
I.e. can we rule out that as a possible cause for his issue?

It's a pretty simple test. Walk by the camera with the current settings that you do NOT think should cause any motion freeze. Then turn NR completely off and see if any difference specific to the motion blur.

If it's relative motion (yes, perpendicular close to the camera is worst case scenario) that is causing the blur at your desired shutter speed, then your only choice is to shoot faster ... which yea, may not be possible given the light you are working with.

 

[CamCrazy]

I'm suggesting to @CamCrazy that if he hasn't tried it, see what happens with motion freeze (at "reasonable" 0-3msec shutter speeds) if he turns NR completely off.
I.e. can we rule out that as a possible cause for his issue?

It's a pretty simple test. Walk by the camera with the current settings that you do NOT think should cause any motion freeze. Then turn NR completely off and see if any difference specific to the motion blur.

See my previous post with no related images, I have tried 0-3ms with NR off, I have been running NR toggled off for the last three days now during daylight hours. Currently set to 0.5ms and freeze motion is pretty good, even in overcast conditions on both running 54ProZE's, for vehicles and people. See how the new firmware plays out when IR kicks in and colour overnight. I am very fortunate that the road is busy enough for plenty testing with settings, pretty sure I have tried most combinations now. Had a break from testing yesterday installing another S3 and 54Pro.

This part of the world can be terrible for low light sadly, it is a limitation. Fortunately the 5442 range have handled this pretty well, and to some degree the 2mp starlight's. I guess expectations are always high, these need to be managed in the real world. Fact is we do get spoilt with cameras from recent years.

 

[bigredfish]

With enough light DNR level matters little if any

15DNR - 3ms my normal settings



DNR off - 3ms

 

[Darrin Morrow]

If there is a difference between those two, I can't see it.

 

[bigredfish]

Yep

 

[EMPIRETECANDY]

Thanks guys great report after the testing, i summerize the issues and submit to the enigneer for some further checking, and report back.
@CamCrazy is taking crazy good pics, lol, sure not by IP Cameras.

 

[bigredfish]

Yes thanks for the tip, I have NR toggled off at the moment, tried it on with 0, and various other settings. Nice bird in flight shot there, I like the challenge of BIF, also static, big photography fan here

Don't have any of my better/bigger/sharper birds snaps to hand but technique does surely help even with these slow moving ones...taken with older camera and I don't consider either to be really sharp....but not too bad....

View attachment 230850

View attachment 230851


This is fairly sharp...



View attachment 230858

Sunset

View attachment 230853

And this was a crop about 80% not too bad...

View attachment 230854

This was just for fun!

View attachment 230856

Anyway, hopefully that helps improve my credibility as a judge of sharpness, maybe not - sorry for going off topic!!

Great pics

Problem is surveillance cameras really can’t compete with newer iPhones let alone top Canon EOS or Nikon’s

The tech we’re dealing with is years behind those

 

[CamCrazy]

Great pics

Problem is surveillance cameras really can’t compete with newer iPhones let alone top Canon EOS or Nikon’s

The tech we’re dealing with is years behind those

Smart phone cameras must have serious development behind them, I often wonder if they focus on those and the sensors in Sony/Canon/Nikon/Olympus brands almost get left as an after thought. Maybe it works the other way also, above my paygrade that one, I assume it is driven by profits and demand vs lack of from the 'Photography' cameras. Sony have been and still are mostly dominating the crop and full frame sensor world, Canon and Nikon do what they can with mostly the Sony sensors. This is why I get excited to see a Sony sensor in any IP camera, should normally have a good outcome, lens quality aside.

Sad to say IP cam sensors are behind the curve but we take what we can, as time goes by, the technology will trickle down. One observation re the general image quality of sensors in general, older sensors on both IP and consumer/pro cameras tend to produce a more natural looking image. The more recent higher megapixel count sensors tend to have a more digital look, less natural to my eyes and other photographers I talk to.

 

[CamCrazy]

So during my daytime tests, I have set the NR (Noise Reduction) to 0 ... AND ... toggled 3D NR OFF ... which seemed redundant since the level is to set to zero anyway. Turns out that doesn't appear to be the case!

This is easily seen in a semi-static scene with both the 0827 and 1022 firmware. Set 2D/3D NR to ZERO and toggle it off. Then use some exposure settings (with lots of gain) that generates a fair amount of noise in the image.

Then toggle "3D NR" to ON ... but leave it as zero - the image cleans up quite a bit!

I can 100% concur with this, testing the new beta firmware 1022 with NR toggled on but both sliders set to 0 there is a noticeable addition of noise reduction. At night and during the day I am now setting both the 54Pro and 4K-T to disable NR altogether and tuning gain/shutter from there, also been trying sharpness at 0 on the 54Pro for night time. Result is a darker image but motion is better along with more natural or realistic look. I stress these cameras are in zero ambient light, running on their own LED's initially with backup from motion triggered LED floodlight. Very much worse case scenario, others who have ambient light full time will likely get away with more.

 

[alekk]

So trying to compare the 0827FW versus 1022FW with the camera's located several feet apart was challenging, I went ahead and removed the 5442-S3 that I had mounted against the wall ... so once the T54PRO firmware has gelled, maybe I'll put the 5442-S3 back up and we can compare to that.

The Wifey is getting home tomorrow ... and she probably would not have noticed two painted camera's ... but since the 2nd T54PRO-ZE is going to my Mom, I have to leave it white ... so she'll probably notice it and (basically) say "when the cat's away, the mice will play ... with their camera's" ;-)

So now there are "Twin T54PRO-ZE's" that are looking at the same scene. The offset is 9" in the vertical (would prefer horizontal which is about 1/2" here) so there is a slight angular difference.

But this provides a very comparable view ... and I can leave this up for a few weeks. Anything you want me to test on this scene?

 

[alekk]

Here's a first pictures from the "Twin T54's" (LOL that sounds like the name of a porn star! ;-) from mid-afternoon - the firmware version is in the lower left.

This is pretty tough as quite a bit of dynamic range with the sun & shadows. The settings were 5msec shutter (1/200s), 100 iris, ZERO gain and NR.

Overall, I like the colors of the 1022 picture better, especially the grass, trees and bushes ... although there is a slight red cast on the driveway.

Looking at the histogram, I can confirm (as @EMPIRETECANDY said) that the blue channel is reduced in the 1022 versus 0827.

I've done the animated GIF so you can see it toggle between the two scenes, but also attached the original PNG's as downloaded directly from the camera ... so pixel-peepers should have everything they need to "take a look" ;-)

P.S. The upper 0827FW camera is mounted higher, so that's the roof it's picking up as easily seen in the top left and just barely in the top right.

 

[CamCrazy]

Here's a first pictures from the "Twin T54's" (LOL that sounds like the name of a porn star! ;-) from mid-afternoon - the firmware version is in the lower left.

This is pretty tough as quite a bit of dynamic range with the sun & shadows. The settings were 5msec shutter (1/200s), 100 iris, ZERO gain and NR.

Overall, I like the colors of the 1022 picture better, especially the grass, trees and bushes ... although there is a slight red cast on the driveway.

Looking at the histogram, I can confirm (as @EMPIRETECANDY said) that the blue channel is reduced in the 1022 versus 0827.

I've done the animated GIF so you can see it toggle between the two scenes, but also attached the original PNG's as downloaded directly from the camera ... so pixel-peepers should have everything they need to "take a look" ;-)

P.S. The upper 0827FW camera is mounted higher, so that's the roof it's picking up as easily seen in the top left and just barely in the top right.


View attachment 230882

Other than colour, struggle to see any meaningful difference there, maybe the grass has touch more detail on 827, but looks like 827 also overexposes in places. Out of interest, do you plan to run these in colour overnight?