Need recommendations

[bigredfish]

Good thing he was moving slow/stopped

Bad Guys rarely stop and stare at the camera. Freezing motion and still getting a crisp clean image is the goal. That’s a function of exposure, NR settings, speed, and available light. (Other settings have some effect as well like iris, sharpness, gain etc but the big 4 mentioned make the biggest impact)
I consider human targets on a fast walk/slow jog my reference target. That means slower will be easier/better and vehicles going faster will be harder and less crisp and likely have some motion blur* (again based on the parameters above)

*All of this is for night video. In daytime we can crank exposure/shutter speed much faster and get clean crisp non-blur images even on fast targets.

Distance is a function of lens. 2.8mm won’t have near the detail of say a varifocal at 12mm at 30 feet

 

[wittaj]

Up close on an object not moving much and with a lot of light almost any camera can do well.

Distances you will see in the reviews/ratings here depend on the camera.

For most fixed lens cameras, folks here concentrate on the ideal IDENTIFY range in the say 10-25 foot range.

The right camera for IDENTIFY at 25 feet will be much different camera than a camera at say 150 feet.

I posted earlier in this thread that we have a whole thread demonstrating the importance of focal length over MP and I took a lot of time to average out based on reviews and comments here the most recommended camera based on the distance to IDENTIFY. Obviously if goals are different, then the camera selections change as well.

One thing people think is with 8MP you can digital zoom to get cleaner images and read plates.

Digital zoom only works in movies. Sure you may get by with a little, but not a lot, and certainly not what we see on TV.

Here is an example from long time member Parley - this is a fixed lens 4mm 8MP camera on the ideal 1/1.2" sensor.

Can you read any plates in this image of parked cars? That black truck on the right is what maybe 100 feet away?

No chance at the jeep across the street at what maybe 175 feet.

With digital zoom you can kinda make out that street sign.

But this camera is set up to capture clean ID of a person snooping and door checking his vehicles in his driveway and people walking on the sidewalk on HIS SIDE of the street. He has another camera to capture ID quality for people on the sidewalk on the other side of the street.





Meanwhile here is my 2MP camera OPTICALLY zoomed for 150 feet capturing a U-HAUL in motion. I think most will say that is a clearly readable plate and will beat any fixed lens 8MP camera that is digitally zoomed.




This is why we stress that the appropriate focal length for the distance to IDENTIFY is more important than MP.

 

[Rightone47]

Ok, in my perfect scenario, recording all night whatever happens and then being able to clearly zoom in is what I'm looking for. In Parley's example, I could get home and see the strange Jeep and zoom in to get the plate. In your Uhaul, I could be recording nothing and then pause the video and zoom in to get the plate.

I know part of that is the Camera, but is it also the Blue Iris functionality?

For my Reolink, I can zoom in live to be able to identify a White Blob bashing a mailbox, but no way to identify unless the car is known, since the plate will be a blob as well (25 ft)... On the recorded version, no zooming in at all, so it's worthless unless the perp is known.

 

[bigredfish]

Ok, in my perfect scenario, recording all night whatever happens and then being able to clearly zoom in is what I'm looking for. In Parley's example, I could get home and see the strange Jeep and zoom in to get the plate. In your Uhaul, I could be recording nothing and then pause the video and zoom in to get the plate.

I know part of that is the Camera, but is it also the Blue Iris functionality?

For my Reolink, I can zoom in live to be able to identify a White Blob bashing a mailbox, but no way to identify unless the car is known, since the plate will be a blob as well (25 ft)... On the recorded version, no zooming in at all, so it's worthless unless the perp is known.

No
You can’t “zoom in” after the fact and get a good image. That only works on TV

It takes multiple cameras. Some overview some zoomed into choke points to get greater detail.

#1 fallacy for new users is trying to do too much with one camera

 

[wittaj]

You are still living in Hollywood LOL.

NO CHANCE you could take Parley's image and zoom in later and get the plate. Parley has another camera set up just to get plates later if he sees a car go by that is questionable.

As I said, DIGITAL zoom only works in the movies and TV. Sure you can do a little, but not much.

Sure you can digital zoom in Blue Iris, but it will be a digital mess.

Digital zooming in after the fact in any system will result in a pixelated mess.

You need OPTICAL zoom for the areas you want ID quality.

That image of the UHAUL is the field of view for that camera. It is all OPTICAL zoom to capture the plate at the time the vehicle passed. No fixed lens camera by any manufacturer will allow you to digital zoom at that distance and read a plate.

That means more cameras.


I will pull an example from the thread above.

Here is a great example of two images taken at the same time (early AM while still dark out) of the same person 60 feet away from just slightly different angles - one from the 5442-ZE 4MP set to 3.6mm that I digitally zoomed from BI to make the person about the same size as the person in the 2MP varifocal optically zoomed.

This digitally zoomed image still could not be used by police to IDENTIFY.

In case someone cannot figure it out, the 4MP that is digitally zoomed in is the B&W picture and the 2MP varifocal optically zoomed in is the color picture LOL.

I think most would agree that the optically zoomed 2MP picture beats the digitally zoomed 4MP picture - you can make out details and read some of the signage and make out bolts, etc. that are just a blur on the 4MP, which is being benefited by the same light the 2MP camera is getting plus the IR.


Someone asked in a later post here why the 4MP with the better sensor was in B/W while the 2MP was in color. The answer is simple. The 4MP didn't require IR illumination - That camera was not set up to IDENTIFY at that distance, but rather up close within 10-15 feet of the camera and I CHOOSE to run it in B/W for the faster shutter to get a cleaner capture. That 4MP runs fine in color and is actually brighter than the 2MP.

That Thread was an afterthought long after those images were taken or I would have done a color to color comparison (but wait I have something close).

However, I am always tweaking my cams and will bounce back and forth between B/W and color and I happen to have a similar shot of the 4MP fixed lens in color from a different day.

So in theory, the 4MP B/W was at its best opportunity to get a clean digital image due to the white light and Infrared light it was getting and that is also kinda evident comparing the 4MP color versus B/W images.

So as you can see, this shows that whether it was in color or B/W, at night with limited light, it will be a messy digital zoomed image whether it is in color or B/W, but the B/W would stand a better chance due to seeing infrared light, but an OPTICALLY zoomed camera will produce the best image for a set distance.

 

[bigredfish]

Two examples:
Each requires TWO cameras

1- Ladies in street at 55ft. OK Camera #1 - I see 4 elderly ladies walking. See clothes color etc.
Camera #2 - How many are wearing earrings?





2- car traveling about 25-30mph at 120ft.
Camera #1 - I see color, maybe even make/model
Tag# comes from Camera #2

 

[Rightone47]

Ok, I may be new to cameras, like a Year old, but I'm MANY more years than that in Real life, and I know everything in Hollywood is 100% True... That's why they put up that Huge Sign! I'm like so sure.

Reolink says you can digitally zoom in 16MP. 4K.... "RLC-823S2 cameras support optical zoom, then your cameras support both optical zoom-in and digital zoom-in while previewing, but only support digital zoom-in while playback."

Of course you can figure out who I'm believing at this point.

So, what I'm getting is to trash basically all the macros of a camera UNTIL I get one in the Green section of post 31, and go from there fine tuning everything.

 

[bigredfish]

At night its 10X harder
55ft

 

[Rightone47]

I know what you're saying about using 2 cameras. That's where I will eventually be.

How did you know I wanted them to record The Golden Girls?

I'm on the way Blanche... Don't you go anywhere now, you hear?

 

[wittaj]

Ok, I may be new to cameras, like a Year old, but I'm MANY more years than that in Real life, and I know everything in Hollywood is 100% True... That's why they put up that Huge Sign! I'm like so sure.

Reolink says you can digitally zoom in 16MP. 4K.... "RLC-823S2 cameras support optical zoom, then your cameras support both optical zoom-in and digital zoom-in while previewing, but only support digital zoom-in while playback."

Of course you can figure out who I'm believing at this point.

So, what I'm getting is to trash basically all the macros of a camera UNTIL I get one in the Green section of post 31, and go from there fine tuning everything.

What they are saying isn't false - "cameras support both optical zoom-in and digital zoom-in while previewing, but only support digital zoom-in while playback."

Only PTZs and varifocals support OPTICAL zoom in while previewing (or live viewing) and EVERY camera supports DIGITAL zoom in while in playback of previously recorded video.

The problem is the sensors are way too small to have digital zoom be effective, especially at night.

 

[Rightone47]

Ok, so I see this cam, which is in the HEAVY RED on the chart at 8MP and it's barely a C-Note.... It's in the GREEN at 2.1MP...

So this camera would basically be 8MP during the day and reliably 2.1MP at Night?

Amcrest UltraHD 4K (8MP) Outdoor Security IP Turret PoE Camera, 3840x2160, 98ft NightVision, 2.8mm Lens, IP67 Weatherproof, MicroSD Recording (256GB), White - IP Cam Talk Store

Stunning 4K ultra-high resolution Amcrest IP Camera w/ a 2.8mm lens. Includes all necessary hardware and more. Buy with confidence from IPCamTalk!

store.ipcamtalk.com

 

[Techie007L]

@Rightone47 No, at night it'll still be 8MP, but all moving objects will streak and blur. You need the camera to have LARGER pixels, not MORE pixels. If it has MORE pixels, then it has to have a LARGER sensor or it won't be able to cleanly freeze moving objects in each frame. The point of the chart is to say that if the camera's sensor is only 1/2.7", don't go for any higher resolution than 2MP. If it's a 4MP or 8MP camera with a 1/2.7" sensor, it's junk that shouldn't have been put on the market—RED zone, avoid.

If your heart is set on an 8MP (4K) camera, one of the few that's any good is the EmpireTech Color4K-T (or X). Still, as others have shown above, a 2MP camera with a telephoto lens will do far better at capturing distant detail (e.g. a face or license plate) than a 4K camera with a normal/wide lens.

 

[wittaj]

Ok, so I see this cam, which is in the HEAVY RED on the chart at 8MP and it's barely a C-Note.... It's in the GREEN at 2.1MP...

So this camera would basically be 8MP during the day and reliably 2.1MP at Night?

Amcrest UltraHD 4K (8MP) Outdoor Security IP Turret PoE Camera, 3840x2160, 98ft NightVision, 2.8mm Lens, IP67 Weatherproof, MicroSD Recording (256GB), White - IP Cam Talk Store

Stunning 4K ultra-high resolution Amcrest IP Camera w/ a 2.8mm lens. Includes all necessary hardware and more. Buy with confidence from IPCamTalk!

store.ipcamtalk.com

No, that isn't the way it works.

The native resolution is always going to be the best the camera can do and where you should look at for the chart.

Downrezing a camera does not work - It is still using the 8 million pixels - the camera doesn't change the "pixel resolution screen" on the camera when you go from 8MP to 2MP. The sensor still needs 4 times the light going from 8MP to 2MP, so the native 2MP camera will result in a better image at night. The firmware will make some algorithm attempt at downrezing it, but it could be a complete crap image or a somewhat usable image, but if there is a concern that the 8MP isn't performing or wouldn't perform well at night, then it is better to go with the 2MP.

I have a 4MP and 2MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor and the picture quality is quite different between the two and the 2MP kicks it's butt at night.

In most instances, you want to get a camera that will perform at your location for the worse situation, which for most of us is at night when it is dark and there is little to no light. If a camera performs at night, it is easier to tweak settings to make it work during the day than it is the other way around.

My 2MP cameras outperform my neighbors 4K (8MP) cameras....why....because they are both on the same size sensor.

When we had a thief come thru here and get into a lot of cars, the police couldn't use one video or photo from anyone's system but mine. Not even my other neighbors $1,300 8MP system provided useful info - the cams just didn't cut it at night.

My neighbor tried the "I will just downrez the 8MP to 2MP" and the image was a soft dark mess.

His system wasn't even a year old and after that event has started replacing with cameras based on my recommendation and seeing my results. He is still shocked a 2MP camera performs better than his 4k cameras and he cannot figure out why downrezing from 8MP to 2MP doesn't work properly... It is all about the amount of light needed and getting the right camera for the right location and downrezing doesn't change the physics of the camera.

 

[bigredfish]

Ok, so I see this cam, which is in the HEAVY RED on the chart at 8MP and it's barely a C-Note.... It's in the GREEN at 2.1MP...

So this camera would basically be 8MP during the day and reliably 2.1MP at Night?

Amcrest UltraHD 4K (8MP) Outdoor Security IP Turret PoE Camera, 3840x2160, 98ft NightVision, 2.8mm Lens, IP67 Weatherproof, MicroSD Recording (256GB), White - IP Cam Talk Store

Stunning 4K ultra-high resolution Amcrest IP Camera w/ a 2.8mm lens. Includes all necessary hardware and more. Buy with confidence from IPCamTalk!

store.ipcamtalk.com

Nope doesn’t work that way.

 

[Rightone47]

Ok, I'm gonna get Rich soon by standing on the road with a "Feel my Hairy Legs, $1" Sign...

Then, after my PTSD stay in the Cuckoos Nest for a few Years along with 27,000 showers, I will pay somebody to figure out the cameras!

Or, I will simply not care and push a shopping cart around the backyard with a Life vest and Helmet on singing "She'll be coming round the Mountain when she comes"...

 

[wittaj]

Ok, I'm gonna get Rich soon by standing on the road with a "Feel my Hairy Legs, $1" Sign...

Then, after my PTSD stay in the Cuckoos Nest for a few Years along with 27,000 showers, I will pay somebody to figure out the cameras!

Or, I will simply not care and push a shopping cart around the backyard with a Life vest and Helmet on singing "She'll be coming round the Mountain when she comes"...

LOL - I tried to make it easy in that thread I posted listing, with Amazon links, the most recommended cameras here based on distance and night performance to ID.

But we get it, it is easy to fall into the trap of more MP is better and digital zoom works and all that stuff that we all fell for too and then were left with a crappy image when someone door checked us or stole something from the yard.

I have boxes of cameras that just didn't cut it because I tried the cheap route and when something happened, found out they didn't give me the image I was looking for.

 

[wittaj]

Here is an example to demonstrate how downrezing doesn't work.

Here is a real world example. The 49225 is a 2MP PTZ on the 1/2.8" sensor. It deems it has enough light at a 1/60 shutter so it stays in color:

Here is the 49425, which is the same camera as the 49225 except is a 4MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor as the 49225. I bought this camera first when I chased MP and thought more was better.

Here is the first big issue you see with a double the resolution on the same size sensor - It deems that it does not have enough light to run in color at a 1/60 shutter so it goes to B/W with Infrared:

Oh let me try downrezing the 4MP to 2MP, that should help.....

The first thing you notice is that downrezing the 4MP 49425 down to a 2MP doesn't result in the camera being able to run color like the native 2MP 49225 as the sensor still doesn't see enough light to run in color because the 4MP "pixel screen" simply isn't letting enough light get into the optics of the sensor.

That is a big deal with low light conditions and why you want to go with a native resolution and preferably a camera on the ideal MP/sensor ratio that is talked about here often. The native resolution may be able to be in color, but the higher resolution on the same size sensor probably won't with low light conditions.

Then in this case, you can see that the 4MP was struggling to even give definition compared to the 2MP. It is wet out so the rain reflections is wreaking havoc with the infrared and focus.

So when I downrezed but kept the bitrate the same, it still looks like a soft mess. Even if there is less noise in this instance, it still doesn't look as good as the native resolution.

As always YMMV and I am sure some newer cameras are improved over when this camera came out, but even so I don't think we will see a higher MP downrez come close to the performance of a native MP on the same size sensor because the higher MP just isn't letting enough light into the optics as the lower MP on the same size sensor.

And the less light that is available, the bigger the difference one will see. Personally, for me the difference between being able to run it in color versus B/W is enough of a reason to go with the camera that is on the ideal MP/sensor ratio talked about here so much.

 

[Rightone47]

Yeah, the only good thing about cheap junk these days is people generally know to avoid it, but the Reolink systems aren't cheap. I bet I could get a no name brand off Alibaba that beats what I have.

My problem with new learning is I need a chart for everything until I have a grasp... My Junior High teacher told me why and what that's called, but I wasn't paying attention because She was Muy caliente and all I heard was blah blah blah.