Trying SSD on BI

tigerwillow1

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Jul 18, 2016
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USA, Oregon
I'm trying an SSD as my storage drive on BI. I know it's advised against, so the forum in general has already told me it's a bad idea. This is one of those instances where I might end up learning from making a mistake. I replaced a 3TB WD purple drive with a 4TB Samsung 990PRO 2280 NVME SSD in an HP gen 3 Elite Desk SFF machine. (The hardest part by far was finding a hold down screw for the SSD. Thanks HP for using something microscopic and nonstandard. Perhaps the easiest source would be to part out a wristwatch :) )

My main hope was to reduce electricity consumption, which is a success only if you pay attention to the digits far to the right of the decimal point. According to kill-a-watt, the consumption has gone down from 0.55 kWh per day to 0.51 kWh per day. At my electric rate that saves 33.15 cents per year, and the SSD will pay for itself in 1,203 years. Seriously, I was expecting better by getting rid of a 24x7 spinning platter.

The unexpected good surprise is UI3 is significantly snappier. When scrolling full blast down the clips list, the thumbnails that often took 5 or so seconds to come up, now come up in less than a half second. When clicking on a clip, the start of play that often took a few seconds is now well under a second. The orange clock has so far gone into hiding.

As far as wearing out the SSD goes, with my setup it takes about 3 days to fill the storage drive. That's 122 over-writes per year, and I think that part of the SSD should outlive all of us. The big action will be in the allocation table. With my 19 cameras opening a new file every hour, that's 456 new files per day, and each one might well take more than a single write operation in the allocation table. I'm beginning to question why an SSD is ok for the C: drive when it holds the Alerts folder, but not ok for the storage drive. My Alerts folder has over 4,000 files in it, while the video storage drive has less than 1,000 files. Seems to me that the C: SSD is getting a lot more writes than the storage drive.

Even if the SSD works out with BI, I wouldn't project that onto a Dahua NVR that creates a new video storage file for every event. It's not totally apples-to-apples because of windows vs. linux file system, but I can't help assuming that the allocation tables get beat on a lot harder in the NVR vs. BI for video storage. Yet with BI creating a file for every event in the Alerts folder on the C: drive, it might be more apples-to-apples than it appears on the surface. I have a 10TB drive in the NVR so won't be trying an SSD in that one anytime soon.

Here's hoping that nobody gets the chance to say "I told you so"!
 
I am writing my "new" folder to a Samsung ssd. It was pulled out of a soon to be recycled 6 year old when I put it in a year ago. No signs of slowing down either. A quality ssd should be fine for quite a while on a system that doesn't have a ton of cameras.
 
How much was the drive?
The 990PRO 4TB that I got was $299. There's a 990 EVO Plus for 40 or 50 bucks less, slightly slower, that from reading the specs I thought would be just as good but I chickened out in case there was more difference. Then there's the 9100 PRO that's a lot faster but over my cheapskate red line. The prices seem to change up and down weekly, if not more often. It did not include the hold-down screw.
 
Sounds like you may have made a big mistake here. You say the UI is snappier. This suggests you have the OS / BI on the same drive as your footage. If so this is a big mistake. The drive footage is on will always wear out the fastest and by putting them all on the same drive you risk having to start from scratch when the drive wears out. By using 2 drives and having the OS and BI on one, and the storage on another, you can save yourself a lot of drama. Another risk using 1 drive is if BI develops a bug and writes beyond the size boundaries set for the storage file, you can over write your OS / BI installation files. Keep everything separate. By far your biggest electricty consumer is likely to the be the processor or your monitor if switched on. BI will run without a monitor switched on so one way to save is keep it switched off unless you need to view the footage - use alerts. Another way of saving power, is to keep the UI closed. This uses considerable cpu power, whereas BI is designed to run in the background so you can close the UI when not viewing the footage and just have BI running in the background and the pc on desktop view (with the monitor additionally swicthed off). None of the proceeding will prevent you receiving alerts or remote viewing from another device (if set up).
 
Sounds like you may have made a big mistake here. You say the UI is snappier. This suggests you have the OS / BI on the same drive as your footage.
The suggestion is wrong. The BI storage folder (BI-new) is the only thing on the big SSD (the E drive), everything else is on C:. I'm just reporting what I see, and without knowing BI and UI3 internals I wouldn't hazard a guess as to why. I rarely run the UI on the BI machine, using UI3 on the office computer that has its monitor powered up all day anyway. The BI machine is almost always pulling between 20 and 25 watts.

Forum trivia: I tried to write E<colon> but it changes it to an emoji.
 
Would love if you can give an update to this after 6 month, 1 year, etc. I always had similar thoughts.

If I didn't need the 3.5" surveillance drive(s) I could migrate to an HP Elitedesk Mini instead of SFF. Could open the door to other mini PCs as well.

Also the heat the HDD creates is insane. Had to open my PC for some reason and when I did the HDD was hot!! And yes, that was after powering down gracefully and then unplugging it.
 
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Would love if you can give an update to this after 6 month, 1 year, etc.
Putting yourself at the mercy of MY memory is very risky! I agree, if I remember. After 6 weeks, all is well.
 
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Putting yourself at the mercy of MY memory is very risky! I agree, if I remember. After 6 weeks, all is well.
OK remind me to remind you to remind me... :rofl:

Well glad to hear that after only 6 weeks all is well so far, I will try to remember to come back to this and remind you. I feel like in a couple of more years they won't even be making spinning HDD anymore.
 
how in the hell are you making 4tb in recordings in 3 days? are you not using any AI and detection triggers? are you just recording full rez 24x7? if you were doing 24x7 on sub stream and full rez on AI trigger, you probably would not do 2 TB a month
 
how in the hell are you making 4tb in recordings in 3 days? are you not using any AI and detection triggers? are you just recording full rez 24x7? if you were doing 24x7 on sub stream and full rez on AI trigger, you probably would not do 2 TB a month
Most people run background recording + triggers albeit most run background reording at lower quality. The reason is simple: If a camera fails to trigger, you still have some evidence. Without background recording, no trigger means no footage. Not sure if TW does this or runs everything at full bit rate. For me I run trigger settings at max bit rate (16,000kbs) and background streams at full res but (from memory) 4,000 kbs.
 
Ive been running BI with 10 - 12 cameras on Intel NUCs as a backup system with a single SSD most of the time and have been doing that for over 5 years and have never had a failure. What is important is to get a decent SSD that has good performance and endurance. I have found the Samsung drives to be very reliable.
 
I'd like to add that I've been running BI on a combination of NVME and SATA ssd's for the last 3-4 years as well and they have not missed a beat.
The key is to use good quality ssd's, and in my case the c drive is using a wd black SN770. Your choice of WD 990 pro, is even better as it has a significantly higher endurance and is designed for constant recording.

The other key to using ssd's is to keep your pc as cool as possible. My setup uses a HP Elite Mini 17-12700T (recently upgrade from a previous model mini with an i7-9700T). The pc has 32G of RAM, 2 NVME ssd's (WD Black SN770, Lexar NM790), a sata SSD (WD Red) and a 2.5" WDBlue HD in an external USB enclosure.. I have mounted the pc vertically on a wall so that I have the added benefit of natural convection of air past the ssd's. Additionally, I also machined flat the base of the pc, removing the powder coated paint and mated it to a piece of aluminium (with heatsink paste) and using it to passively suck out as much heat as possible out of the pc. With this setup the nvme drives range in temperature between 28-36oC during normal running.

(BTW - the small screws required to hold down an nvme can be found as the screws holding together your old sata ssd's, ie the little screws in the corners.....)

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Wow, I never imagined so many BI-SSD users were lurking in the closets.
 
I never thought about clip thumbnails being a bottleneck on standard hard drives, but that makes sense if they're stored on the same drive that is being used for continuous recording of many streams.

SSDs are great for BI video storage. It just isn't super cost-effective. Timeline playback is where it is most noticeable in my opinion because that is where you have Blue Iris needing to load multiple clips all at the same time. On a hard drive it can take many seconds to load all the videos and get them playing. On an SSD it can be less than 1 second. Of course that might overwhelm your CPU if you aren't using sub streams :)

Another risk using 1 drive is if BI develops a bug and writes beyond the size boundaries set for the storage file, you can over write your OS / BI installation files. Keep everything separate.
That is not true. Blue Iris accesses the disk through high-level APIs offered by the operating system, so the operating system is in charge of making sure all the rules of the filesystem are respected, and writes to one file do not affect any other files. If every software author was responsible for maintaining the integrity of the underlying file system, then computers would be unusable.

I'm beginning to question why an SSD is ok for the C: drive when it holds the Alerts folder, but not ok for the storage drive. My Alerts folder has over 4,000 files in it, while the video storage drive has less than 1,000 files. Seems to me that the C: SSD is getting a lot more writes than the storage drive.

Nah. The number of write operations or number of files is relatively unimportant. It is the total amount of data written that matters. If you write 4000 files but those files only take up 100 MB of space, then you've written about 100 MB to the SSD, and that is what matters. The actual amount of data written would be a little higher due to filesystem overhead or wear leveling overhead, but not in a very meaningful amount. It is about the same as recording a single 100 MB video clip. The SSD has a wear leveling algorithm to make sure individual memory cells are not worn out prematurely, and there is also some hidden extra capacity to handle cases where a cell does stop working properly, the SSD can just stop using it and the advertised capacity of the disk doesn't have to go down.
 
The problem with flash memory of any type is the finite number of writes which are much lower than for HDD's. The associated issue is I believe there's been a trend with memory cards at least in recent years to move away from SLC the most durable type of NAND to other less durable types such as MLC and beyond. These typically have lower write failure limits.

That said, I've been using SSD's in my PC's for years for the OS system and associated files and touch wood, after 10 years have never had a failure. However, this is OS only and are probably SLC from the time around when the SSD was purchased.
In my BI pc, I run SSD + HDD for footage. Never has any issues with slow retreival. If folks are seeing slow retreival, it's as likely the processing power as the HDD as a few milliseconds extra of access time isn't that likely to be of any significance in my opinion. SSD will be a little quicker to access but as most aren't moving large files around, only writing sequentially or reading on playback, I can't really see noticeable gains for regular usage. Given many use very old pc's I'd point the finger for slow peformance more likely at processor or maybe simply the age of system in use. I've seen occassional slow performance on my BI machine (i5) vs my desktop (i7) but never using BI or during playback. More during Windows OS functions than BI. All that said, if SSD's will endure, it makes for a smaller lighter quieter system although again with modern HDD's you shouldn't really hear them unless in a very very quiet room. The fans on my main pc all but drown my HDD's out and they're many years old.
 
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I'd like to add that I've been running BI on a combination of NVME and SATA ssd's for the last 3-4 years as well and they have not missed a beat.
The key is to use good quality ssd's, and in my case the c drive is using a wd black SN770. Your choice of WD 990 pro, is even better as it has a significantly higher endurance and is designed for constant recording.

The other key to using ssd's is to keep your pc as cool as possible. My setup uses a HP Elite Mini 17-12700T (recently upgrade from a previous model mini with an i7-9700T). The pc has 32G of RAM, 2 NVME ssd's (WD Black SN770, Lexar NM790), a sata SSD (WD Red) and a 2.5" WDBlue HD in an external USB enclosure.. I have mounted the pc vertically on a wall so that I have the added benefit of natural convection of air past the ssd's. Additionally, I also machined flat the base of the pc, removing the powder coated paint and mated it to a piece of aluminium (with heatsink paste) and using it to passively suck out as much heat as possible out of the pc. With this setup the nvme drives range in temperature between 28-36oC during normal running.

(BTW - the small screws required to hold down an nvme can be found as the screws holding together your old sata ssd's, ie the little screws in the corners.....)

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@JK200SX <--- This guy heatsinks!

Did you ever measure the temps with and without them?
 
The problem with flash memory of any type is the finite number of writes which are much lower than for HDD's. The associated issue is I believe there's been a trend with memory cards at least in recent years to move away from SLC the most durable type of NAND to other less durable types such as MLC and beyond. These typically have lower write failure limits.
Yeah I read that QLC (quad level cell) can only be overwritten about 1000 times. Imagine if wear leveling algorithms didn't exist. You could kill a cell in a matter of seconds.

Almost all consumer SSDs from the last couple years are TLC or QLC.