The Z4 (you'd be better off with the 4MP version if nighttime is important) is 32mm vs the PTZ I show at 135mm
Point is dont believe the DORI numbers
Point is dont believe the DORI numbers
Would appreciate guidance on camera install locations
- Thread starter lipelliot
- Start date
At night, the numbers would be a quarter of that or worse given the MP/sensor ratio.
DORI is a nice tool in the tool box, but these numbers are under ideal situations with a marketing spin and real world experiences of DORI is that those numbers are established by the manufacturer and are based on best case scenarios like an object not moving and ideal light conditions.
Real world you should cut them in half during daytime and cut that half in half or more at night time for cameras on ideal MP/sensor ratios.
As an example, our long time resident camera expert Wildcat ran the Dahua 4K/X 8MP 1/1.2" sensor thru the paces. Keep in mind this 4K/X camera is incredible.
He had the 3.6mm version and here is the screenshot from 40 feet in the ideal daylight and standing still, which based on DORI numbers is the supposed IDENTIFY distance for this camera with the 3.6mm lens and I think most of would agree that this is not IDENTIFY quality, even if digitally zoomed in:
I have the 4K/X and 4K/T and they are incredible cameras, but I wouldn't use it for IDENTIFY past 15-20 feet, or half of what the DORI number is.
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So, at ~400-450ft, everything would be a useless blur?
Would that camera be fully zoomed in at that distance? DORI numbers show 1850/740/370/185, so real world daylight would be 925/370/185/92. Observe is just a little past ideal, and at night even Detect would be (worse than) questionable at 465.
If not that camera, is there another that would do better? obviously the 25x optical zoom would be idea, but that's ~$700. is there a bullet in a gentler price range?
Would that camera be fully zoomed in at that distance? DORI numbers show 1850/740/370/185, so real world daylight would be 925/370/185/92. Observe is just a little past ideal, and at night even Detect would be (worse than) questionable at 465.
If not that camera, is there another that would do better? obviously the 25x optical zoom would be idea, but that's ~$700. is there a bullet in a gentler price range?
I can guarantee you that the Z4E will not see 400 feet at night LOL. It will be likely all black.
For IDENTIFY, I prefer the Z4E not much past 60 feet.
As an example, many people opted for the Z4E to try to get plates at 70 feet and ended up swapping it out for the much more powerful Z12E.
The Z12E is double the focal length of the Z4E but it only works well at distance for plates. At 100 feet out for a person it is just a moving blob.
But if you are needing 400 feet, then a PTZ would be the choice.
For IDENTIFY, I prefer the Z4E not much past 60 feet.
As an example, many people opted for the Z4E to try to get plates at 70 feet and ended up swapping it out for the much more powerful Z12E.
The Z12E is double the focal length of the Z4E but it only works well at distance for plates. At 100 feet out for a person it is just a moving blob.
But if you are needing 400 feet, then a PTZ would be the choice.
I'm willing to concede that seeing the park at 450ft at night is not happening, but what if we adjust to Observable in daytime, then will one of the bullets be acceptable?
If "Observe" to you means "I think maybe I kinda saw something move but it could have been a shadow" then yeah.
Arrows at 300ft and 600ft
Arrows at 300ft and 600ft
Thanks for the pics, yeah you really can't tell acting at that distance. Which camera is that?
I should state something about MY pricing scheme of $200 vs $600 for residential network wiring:
I was just an employee at a low voltage cabling business at the time when a security event happened at my house (the now infamous Da Tire Slasher).
I had no cameras, no thought of home defense... you know, the typical homeowner.
The days following the event, I went down the rabbit hole in a panic to find a solution. Camera security was the topmost solution, beating out hiring 10 armed bodyguards or a couple of those autocannons in the deleted scene of the "Aliens" movie.
I called around to local & nationwide chain Alarm companies who do video security. Explained my situation of the ongoing concern of vandalism and of needing help.
The multiple quotes I received to install just a simple 4 IP camera (wired & wireless) with NVR ..... to me, disrespectful, insulting, uncaring, greedy for the IP cameras themselves, the Cat5e cable to install, and the NVR. And to top it off, 3-4 weeks delay for scheduling. Remember, I know what the cost/profit margin of installing network cable. Just not the NVR/Camera cost, back then.
During my online researching, I came across a REDDIT post about IP camera home security. One post, was whining about how someone called @fenderman was belittling this person, short, curt, etc. The next couple posts were saying this person deserved it. That piqued my curiosity, and that is how I came to IPCT
5 years later, I own the low voltage data cabling company.
It is now my mission to keep the price tag as low as possible for camera security for those in immediate need: domestic violence situations, handicapped veterans, special need children, etc. My Cat6 cabling is priced out at cost, not retail. Any NVR/IP cameras I sell are at cost, not retail. The only profit I make is towards the labor which I keep reasonable.
For those residential customers that not in an emergency situation, so far...the pricing is pretty much the same. Though I may add in 10-20% profit for hardware later on, one day.
For anyone curious of the true price of a cable install: My cost for Cat6 PVC cable is 0.19 cents per foot. My direct burial, shielded, gel filled rated Cat6 comes in at 0.48 cents a foot. These are top quality name brand certified cabling passing all the industry & govt tests (CommScope, Berk-Tek, General Cable, etc). Are there other great brands? Sure. But my business cabling industry requires high level specifications that these name brands carry, while others do not.
Of course, one of the best ROI for a home IP camera security hardware (in my opinion) is Dahua and possibly Hikvision. Don't know the full specs of Hik cameras but I assume they are on the same playing field as the Dahua lineup. And safe to say, we can purchase top quality camera hardware from @EMPIRETECANDY at a very favorable price.
So, I never understood these outfits charging $600 for a cable install + $600 for a IP camera (which probably have 1/2.8" sensors to begin with and are 2.8mm focal). Don't get me started on what they charge for a 25x PTZ.
They charge what they charge because the homeowner does not have a choice. This feels similar to when my girlfriend goes to get new car tires and she tells me the crazy bonkers price. I go show up and the price drastically drops JUST because I'm a man who is informed. I would expect a local business to treat their customers fairly and honestly, not greedy and insulting.
Very informative information, and it shows you are a good guy regarding pricing, etc. After a car ran through my front fence I hired the local security company to install three cameras and an NVR. I had no idea what an install would entail and cost, but then I stumbled across this forum. Incredibly informative, and I appreciate that the contributors are helpful and not condescending to newbies. I've learned so much by reading zillions of posts. I don't feel bad about what I paid for the initial install, but if there is an important thing I learned, it is that setting up a system is not as complex as the security companies make it out to be. You CAN do it yourself and save some money. Interestingly enough, yours was one of the first posts I read when I joined this forum.I should state something about MY pricing scheme of $200 vs $600 for residential network wiring:
I was just an employee at a low voltage cabling business at the time when a security event happened at my house (the now infamous Da Tire Slasher).
I had no cameras, no thought of home defense... you know, the typical homeowner.
The days following the event, I went down the rabbit hole in a panic to find a solution. Camera security was the topmost solution, beating out hiring 10 armed bodyguards or a couple of those autocannons in the deleted scene of the "Aliens" movie.
I called around to local & nationwide chain Alarm companies who do video security. Explained my situation of the ongoing concern of vandalism and of needing help.
The multiple quotes I received to install just a simple 4 IP camera (wired & wireless) with NVR ..... to me, disrespectful, insulting, uncaring, greedy for the IP cameras themselves, the Cat5e cable to install, and the NVR. And to top it off, 3-4 weeks delay for scheduling. Remember, I know what the cost/profit margin of installing network cable. Just not the NVR/Camera cost, back then.
During my online researching, I came across a REDDIT post about IP camera home security. One post, was whining about how someone called @fenderman was belittling this person, short, curt, etc. The next couple posts were saying this person deserved it. That piqued my curiosity, and that is how I came to IPCT
5 years later, I own the low voltage data cabling company.
It is now my mission to keep the price tag as low as possible for camera security for those in immediate need: domestic violence situations, handicapped veterans, special need children, etc. My Cat6 cabling is priced out at cost, not retail. Any NVR/IP cameras I sell are at cost, not retail. The only profit I make is towards the labor which I keep reasonable.
For those residential customers that not in an emergency situation, so far...the pricing is pretty much the same. Though I may add in 10-20% profit for hardware later on, one day.
For anyone curious of the true price of a cable install: My cost for Cat6 PVC cable is 0.19 cents per foot. My direct burial, shielded, gel filled rated Cat6 comes in at 0.48 cents a foot. These are top quality name brand certified cabling passing all the industry & govt tests (CommScope, Berk-Tek, General Cable, etc). Are there other great brands? Sure. But my business cabling industry requires high level specifications that these name brands carry, while others do not.
Of course, one of the best ROI for a home IP camera security hardware (in my opinion) is Dahua and possibly Hikvision. Don't know the full specs of Hik cameras but I assume they are on the same playing field as the Dahua lineup. And safe to say, we can purchase top quality camera hardware from @EMPIRETECANDY at a very favorable price.
So, I never understood these outfits charging $600 for a cable install + $600 for a IP camera (which probably have 1/2.8" sensors to begin with and are 2.8mm focal). Don't get me started on what they charge for a 25x PTZ.
They charge what they charge because the homeowner does not have a choice. This feels similar to when my girlfriend goes to get new car tires and she tells me the crazy bonkers price. I go show up and the price drastically drops JUST because I'm a man who is informed. I would expect a local business to treat their customers fairly and honestly, not greedy and insulting.
Thanks @Holbs, I (and I expect others who stumble upon this in the future) really appreciate the honesty and details.
For the record, that next quote was from a small shop and the costs much more reasonable, ~$170/drop (parts and labor), or $125/hr labor + parts. They're struggling with hardware right now as they switch to Luminys from Dahua, but the initial quote was fine, $335 for camera (2.8mm, 8MP turret) and mount, but their system dropped that sku and they haven't been able to replace it, so I'm going to get it all from EmpireTech and have them do the work of installing it.
While I'm thinking about it, are there any questions I should ask this installer before the job? He mentioned cat6, but not specifically CMR, I should probably clarify that. Should I ask for all the drops to end at a patch panel or just plug them straight into the PoE switch? Anything else I won't have thought of?
Final question, should I avoid the brand new IPC-T54PRO-ZE in favor of the current standard IPC-T54IR-ZE-S3? I've read some of the threads talking about the new camera, tweaking the settings to try and make it work as well as the T54IR and it sounds like it's been a struggle. I like that the PRO has the white lights, but other than that they seem fairly identical.
Thanks!
For the record, that next quote was from a small shop and the costs much more reasonable, ~$170/drop (parts and labor), or $125/hr labor + parts. They're struggling with hardware right now as they switch to Luminys from Dahua, but the initial quote was fine, $335 for camera (2.8mm, 8MP turret) and mount, but their system dropped that sku and they haven't been able to replace it, so I'm going to get it all from EmpireTech and have them do the work of installing it.
While I'm thinking about it, are there any questions I should ask this installer before the job? He mentioned cat6, but not specifically CMR, I should probably clarify that. Should I ask for all the drops to end at a patch panel or just plug them straight into the PoE switch? Anything else I won't have thought of?
Final question, should I avoid the brand new IPC-T54PRO-ZE in favor of the current standard IPC-T54IR-ZE-S3? I've read some of the threads talking about the new camera, tweaking the settings to try and make it work as well as the T54IR and it sounds like it's been a struggle. I like that the PRO has the white lights, but other than that they seem fairly identical.
Thanks!
An unpopulated 12 port patch panel costs $40'ish, cost. Each network cable will need a network jack to be inserted into the unpopulated patch panel. My jacks are Cat6 jacks and cost is just under $5 each.
CMR is fine for residence. If a fire breaks out, the plastic smoke coming off a network cable is the last thing you will be worried about in compared to everything else on fire (rug, couch, electronics, etc). CMP (Plenum cabling) actually does cost 2x's sometimes 3x's as much as PVC.
So cost wise, I recommend using a patch panel, not RJ45 modular plug ends. For the fact it's cleaner and easier for troubleshooting down the road when (not if) troubleshooting is required.
You will have to add in needing Cat6 patch cords you can purchase or they can supply.
I do not own the PRO. I still am fond of the T54IR for it's longer distance at night. If I were not concerned for 20' or more, I might go PRO.
mat200
IPCT Contributor
- Jan 17, 2017
- 17,336
- 29,239
Hi @lipelliot
Personally, during the cabling job, I like to pull an extra cat5e/6 line to each location ( so called N+1 pull ) .. typically not much more cost in time, mostly cabling cost.
This way, when I discover I just need ONE more camera in a particular spot, I can fairly easily do what is needed as there already is another cable, OR if I have issues with a cable run I can try the other cable.
( rats and squirrels, do keep those critters out of the house )
I like the PFA 121 and 122 junction boxes, as they share the same base .. and you can typically change out the lids for 3 screw or 4 screw camera bases.
The most import part of the job imho is the cabling, as eventually you will want to replace a camera or 2 as they fail or newer better models come out.
Agree with Holbs about the patch panel termination idea ..
here's the example of the patch panel mark I have ( I am also using it for internal ethernet ports .. )
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Most here would not recommend all of the same camera. 2.8mm 8MP turrets are only good for IDENTIFY under 15 feet or less if the MP/sensor ratio isn't good.
Yeah, I wasn't thrilled with that aspect of the quote. Planning to use mostly T54PRO-ZE, 1/1.8, 4MP, with the variofocal compensating for whichever depth is best in the spot. This is my first go at cameras, so I'll can switch some out over the next year when I've learned my lesson.
Hopefully you have been reading the PRO thread and know what you are getting into....
is exactly what I did...mostly
purchased 4 x 2.8mm cameras.
Next batch of 4 soon after were varifocal.
Next batch of 4 were AI varifocals.
Before I knew it, had over 20 cameras of various models to have fun with.
purchased 4 x 2.8mm cameras.
Next batch of 4 soon after were varifocal.
Next batch of 4 were AI varifocals.
Before I knew it, had over 20 cameras of various models to have fun with.
That's exactly what I'm worried about, at the last moment here I'm considering changing to the T54IR since it's an established model. I really like the white lights on the PRO though. I'm not trying to Identify at all right now, just Observe kids in the yard, so there's time to allow the geniuses on this forum to get to know the PRO better before I start trying to min/max the cameras.
As long as they work, they can Observe the yard, then I'll do the PRO.
We all start down this journey thinking OBSERVE until something happens.... Then your spouse says you spent $1k on cameras and all we could do is tell the police what time it happened LOL.
The 54IR has been the trusted gold standard since at least 2019 or whenever it was introduced. The S3 version upped the game.
If you want the white lights, go with the 4M-T model.
EmpireTech IPC-Color4M-T 1/1.8" CMOS 4MP Smart Dual Light Active Deter
4MP 1/1.8" CMOS Built-in multi-core light, Max. IR distance is 30 m, Max. warm light distance is 30 m Intelligent monitoring: Intrusion, Tripwire Supports max. 512 G Micro SD card Built-in dual Mic Support two-way talk IP67 protection Sound and light alarm (red and blue lights) SMD 4.0
empiretech01.com
Place turret cameras at the NW, NE, SE, and SW corners of the house to cover the yard, keep the floodlight camera over the garage, and use the doorbell camera for the front entry. For long-distance views like the park, consider a high-mounted PTZ camera on the NW corner. Use your NAS/NVR with BlueIris, run ethernet to all cameras, and angle them to minimize blind spots.Hello!
I would really appreciate some advice on where to install cameras and which cameras would fit my needs. I've lurked for a while and tried to answer the basic questions below, I hope it isn't so much text that I get no replies
Purpose:
- The primary objective is to have cameras pointing around the exterior of a 2 story house to be able to know where the kids are on my ~1/3 acre corner suburban lot.
- This is a less lofty goal than to visually identify an intruder, so at least at first I'm hoping to put up 5 or 6 cameras, just to obtain visibility of my yard and improving the system as needed next year.
- Obviously the system will double as security cameras in the event of intrusion, but that's not common around here.
- A stretch goal would be to have visibility of the park I'm adjacent to (400ft to the NW) so I can see if the kids have run over there.
DORI goals: I'm aiming for between Observe and Recognize.
Current cameras: I have an Amcrest 2mp wifi flood light over the garage, and while setting them up and troubleshooting, I found helpful guidance at https://blink-home.pissedconsumer.com/customer-service.html, along with a mix of freestanding Foscam and Amcrest wifi cameras inside.
Plan:
- Run ethernet to all the corners of the house and install cameras to be able to see every common play place at a glance.
- My first thought was turrets at each corner, the flood over the garage, and a doorbell cam, but I don't think that'll be enough coverage.
- I will also build a NAS/NVR (i5-12400, 32GB RAM, room for 8 HDD) and run BlueIris.
Ask for Help:
- I'm struggling with all the different cameras and models, even when only looking at EmpireTech. There seems to be no guide on which models are from which year, what the model numbers mean, etc. I was looking at the new IPC-T54PRO-ZE because it had the white light as well as IR and 2 way audio, and initial reports on here seemed to say it was a good camera.
- Where to place the cameras?
- the west side isn't used much so it can be a blind spot (for now)
I've attached a terrible MS paint of my property (it's a google map that I've doodled over so it's true to scale), and some rough measurements.
- property lines are ~115ft long
- Driveway is 40ft long and slightly downhill.
- Garage is 25ft "tall" (driveway side), and 20ft deep (to the house).
- House is 35ft wide by 30ft tall
- NW corner of the house is almost at 3rd story height because of the walkout basement.
Thanks for the help!
The costs are being covered (hopefully) by state funds, as a way to monitor my son (special needs, state waiver) but still provide independence, so the cost isn't hitting the wallet the same way.We all start down this journey thinking OBSERVE until something happens.... Then your spouse says you spent $1k on cameras and all we could do is tell the police what time it happened LOL.
The 54IR has been the trusted gold standard since at least 2019 or whenever it was introduced. The S3 version upped the game.
If you want the white lights, go with the 4M-T model.
EmpireTech IPC-Color4M-T 1/1.8" CMOS 4MP Smart Dual Light Active Deter
4MP 1/1.8" CMOS Built-in multi-core light, Max. IR distance is 30 m, Max. warm light distance is 30 m Intelligent monitoring: Intrusion, Tripwire Supports max. 512 G Micro SD card Built-in dual Mic Support two-way talk IP67 protection Sound and light alarm (red and blue lights) SMD 4.0
I love that the 54IR is well known and loved, but if it's really from 2019, are there features that are "missing" when comparing it against the new T54PRO? Maybe some fancy AI stuff? I have issues with FOMO and perfectionism when dealing with tech, so I'm struggling to buy something "outdated", but I understand that's probably ridiculous when it comes to cameras.
IPC-Color4M-TZ is the same but variofocal, right?
My current plan is to install the five T54PRO/T54IR like shown in the image, then the PTZ3E10X-T180 in the NW corner with a corner mount, aiming the 180° straight north and using the PTZ to look down at the basement door or west at the fence gate/side yard.
